Interesting post by a guy on Dragonsfoot known as “Prespos.”
A lot of the older (both in terms of age and amount of years spent on DF) posters there seem to have a very embittered attitude about other people and their gaming habits. No matter how friendly or sunny a new person might come off as with their innocent inquiry about this or that topic related to D&D, there is always a long-timer on DF ready to tell them they “are cheating” for using house rules or “are having fun wrong” in some way or another. Some come off with portents of gaming doom (“that campaign will be doomed to fail because…”) over very simple things. It really verges on parody sometimes. It seems to me a lot of these people are past their time of gaming fun and greatness (and often haven’ t actually played in many years), and just seem to lurk around like ghosts for the sake of their own sad egos trying to warn the living about making mistakes that can ruin the experience. You can read a lot of hurt in some of the negatives that show up in place like DF.
If you don’t check the link, here’s what Prespos had to say in part:
“…Been quite badly depressed the last few days,
and i have been thinking of quitting AD&D again, and again ....
Really, i look at the tabletop AD&D (1E) scene, and i really have to wonder ... if i ever want to be part of that scene ever again,
the tabletop scene, the convention scene.
Really, i look at the AD&D community ... what i see : confusion, a waste of time/life, degeneration, and, what is worst of all ...
some kind of a mediocrity, a nostalgic mediocrity that feeds upon itself ... perhaps, by worshiping the words of the dead.
Really, it is the mediocrity, the lack of excellence, that, perhaps, distresses me the most about the AD&D 1E scene.
Really, if i had the choice of being at the lejendary TSR building, or the lejendary SSI building, Now, really: i think that i would go with the latter…”
The thing is, of many of the old timers do, Prespos never struck me as particularly negative or embittered by his years of gaming experience. He often offers helpful advice on DF, and is working on big old school projects of the types that are popular in the OSR crowd. But it is obvious that both his time on DF, and in all things gaming related, has eaten away at him in some way. I think you would have to feel pretty strongly to go on a public forum and open yourself up like this. But really, when you read what is bugging him, it makes some sense. Conventions, game shops, forums; the gaming world is full of true cretins and creepos of every color and kind. It’s one of the big reasons I don’t venture outside my own group more often. Sure, I’ve had some good experiences in the last couple years of my return to gaming after several years off, but any regular readers of my blog know full well that I have had some really major balls-ups when trying to get more involved in the outer scene.
From nit-picky, overly entitled middle-aged Star Wars fanatics, to a geektard regular player of a session I sat in on killing my character in the first 45 minutes of games start, I personally have plenty to be depressed about such as Prespos gives voice too. I think a couple of things give me hope though, besides my great public OD&D experiences of late. One, I have this blog as a place to vent, and hoo boy have I vented. But two, and most importantly, I have a regular group of people to play with who are decent and only marginally piss me off from time to time.
I think that is key to gaming happiness among old schoolers who hold unto much of the old way. Actually playing the dead editions you grew up with and loved goes a long way to keep the bitters away. So many of the negative or depressed voices in the OSR community seem to come out of a place of “the best years are behind us.” I tend to see the 90’s as my Golden Age of gaming, but really now that my Night Below campaign is finally finished, I look back at how amazing it was. How challenging it was for my player AND me. Maybe this is my true Golden Age. I guess I won’t be able to tell for sure until sometime in the future.
But yeah, for sure if I don’t have a regular group in the future, and I keep blogging, or even working on some thankless OSR project to be part of the gaming zeitgeist along the lines of what Prespos was working on (yeah, right, I’ll get on that right away), I may experience a certain amount of burn out or unhappiness with it. I think that was sort of happening by around 2001 or so for me, and was one of the reasons I went into semi-retirement. And I wasn’t even online then seeing that there are actually some intelligent non-creeps in the gaming community beyond the fields I knew.
But most important in Prespos’ words I think is a warning against putting too much stock in the words of the dead. Being too faithful to poorly edited and sketchy rules from almost 40 years ago.
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RPGs exist at such a weird and awkward place between being "just a game" and being a consuming passion. Even despite this, it's still surprising to see so many forum, and, to a lesser extent, blog writers who have their identities wrapped up in gaming culture. I think it's not being trite to advise these people to move a bit back towards the "just a game" end of the spectrum.
ReplyDeleteAs you point out, a lot of the critical opinions and angry voices in the forums seem to come from people that hardly even play RPGs anymore. They need to relax and play and laugh a little bit. I think these folks often lose sight of the fact that what ALL this is about is sitting at a table having fun and being creative with friends. The online community Perspos is talking about is really tertiary and of minimal importance in terms of actually sitting at a table and playing Dungeons & Dragons with pals.
I may be way off base her, but in addition to actually playing, and keeping the game in perspective as part of a well-rounded life, it certainly doesn't hurt to let your own personal game evolve. I certainly don't play the way I used to when I was 12, or even the way I did when I was 21. My interests and knowledge have expanded, and I've infused my game with these new interests, and attracted new players who enjoy the game as I run it now. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, but I'm still playing and still looking forward to my weekly games.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. But my focus is on my family, like it was with Gary. I play 1E with my kids (9, 11, 13, 15) and my wife. There's plenty of fun there and I don't have to deal with weirdoes. My adult gaming group is very selective...we're all professionals ranging from 28 to 41.
ReplyDeleteCyke: Yeah, we need to grow up and out and our gaming along with anything else we might be into. In the 80's we played every week or more. In the 90's I ran a game (6-8 hours) every month at best. Now it's every other week, for only 3-4 hours a session. I don't hunger for more, nor do I want to be a part of the zietgiest outside of this humble little flash in the pan blog. I'm into the game just enough to suit me and the ton of other stuff in my life, and that is golden.
ReplyDeleteTroll: that's very much my experience as well.
Anthony: A family sounds like a nice, ready made group. Not sure it would be for me though. I don't think I could reconcile the idiot I sometimes act like when I'm running games with family. My hypothetical wife might not approve (especially with all the drinking and smoking).
You hit the nail on the head with DF. Left thst place years ago after too much potentially useful conversation got trolled and sniped by such comments as "it will never work" and other pompous and pendantic pronouncements. It seemed to be the nature of the place as always a few mods would join in to inspire and rally the faithful.
ReplyDeleteWhat gerked me off, was finding out the keepers of truth were in daiper when I started playing and the general dismissal of any facts that didn't jive with thier faith. Yeah tell me how giving MUs bonus spells is bound to destroy your game unless you are Gygax humself, ignore me when I tell you from a three decades of experience how it can actually work fine.
Well that and the gross ignorance of anything other than D&D, yet hubris of "knowing" that the D&D way is the best way.
Well, yes, the play/atmosphere is adjusted for "younglings." Only the DM of my adult group is allowed in; I vet the family group really close. :)
ReplyDeleteIt's not "Candyland"...think of it as an 80s PG movie. :)
Mike: that is so funny. Since some time in the 80's I gave MU's a couple of extra 1st level spells "in mind" to use once a day as sort of an "innate magic" from their training; and also so 1st level MU's had more to do in their first couple of games. It never upset any kind of balance, and MU's weren't suddenly ruling the world or something like all the players wanting to run magic users all of sudden cause they were so cool and powerful. It just helped that player have more fun and basically more fun for all. Some of those DF idiots (especially those against housefules) would tell you that you're campaign is going to burn in hell for that. Incredible.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post and comments. I tend to read the burnout post by Prespos as his own confession of gaming imbalance rather than an indictment on the hobby. Burnout is typical of overindulgence in almost anything in life. We don’t seem to be wired for obsessive behavior without it becoming an addiction. Enough psycho-babble. If all the players of a game enjoy it, it really doesn’t matter what the rest of us think about how they play the game. I don’t really care who you play with, how you play or what kind of house rules, adaptations or additions are present in your game as long as the players are happy. That is all that ultimately matters. “ A waste of time/life, degeneration, and, what is worst of all ... some kind of a mediocrity, a nostalgic mediocrity that feeds upon itself ... perhaps, by worshiping the words of the dead.” I’m tempted to go into round two of psycho-babble, but I am content to say few things disappoint me more than former advocates of a thing turned into sour critics. I’ve never been to his site, so I have no idea how the person writes. I am sure in his prime it was different. Thanks again for the post.
ReplyDeleteYou inspired a post on my own blog (I've been so busy I've not had much inspiration for postage lately).
ReplyDeleteI've seen lots of stuff during my life as a gamer. And I continue to see it. I really respect the OSR, but some of its participants have these ideas about purity of game and what systems are valid and are very aggressive about it. Sorry, sometimes I don't want to roll 3d6 six times and then die five minutes into the dungeon. Sometimes I like my elves to HAVE character classes, not BE a class.
What it comes down to, I think, is a sense of validation. A lot of the people I've met online and in real life have low self-esteems and few accomplishments, so they mask their issues with some sense of gaming elitism.
What gaming meant to me, first and foremost, was something I would do with my friends. I really don't feel comfortable gaming with strangers because in middle school, high school, and college, I always gamed with people who were good friends outside of the gaming room. These were people with whom I went to concerts, parties, movies, diners, etc., and talked about video games, cinema, books, music, and D&D. To me, if there's not that kind of connection with my fellow gamers, then I feel like I'm sort of wasting my time.
Forums are generally more dire than all but the most Aspergerian of blogs, and they get worse as the years go on. It has always been thus. :(
ReplyDeleteI understand were this guy is coming from and can't completely fault him. the hobby is a great form of escapism and I can't tell you how many times at my dull work place that I have found times to "zone out" of the boredom quickly write up a new NPC or an idea for an adventure on the back of some discarded office memo. But yeah, maybe Prespos needs to take a break from by either stop gaming or getting out of the hobby all together. I've been down that road before and I know others as well and I think it's normal when your passionate about something ,especially as eclectic as RPG's.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed more and more bickering, name-calling, and just downright nastiness on some D&D forums of late. DF might be the worst, but right up there with it is Canonfire. If you disagree with so-and-so's brand of D&D or AD&D or Greyhawk, then you are in for a hellish tongue-lashing in the least! People need to get over themselves and enjoy D&D (whatever version they play) for what it is...a game!
ReplyDeleteIt may be worth bearing in mind that Prespos dabbles in "magic" in the real world. Not only does that suggest that he's got problems that derive from somewhere other than the gaming table, it's also the sort of shit that will GIVE you new problems.
ReplyDeleteWe all get burnt out faster from talking about playing than from actually playing, and Prespos has done a lot of talking and a lot of editing of some massive project he's concocted to do some sort of legal rule clone of 1e. That'd do anyone's head in even if they were happy-go-lucky to start with.
As for DF: it's mission statement is the support of 1e AD&D, with supplementary boards for other pre-3e systems. If you expect frequent discussions on how to fix the endless problems with the system the site supports then, surprise surprise, you'll not get a wide-open embrace, even if you're old enough to need daipers again. Try going to www.welovemichaeljackson.com and posting about paedophilia some time.
The discussion on DF is mostly good most of the time, IMO. Apologies to Mike if anyone failed to worship his wrinkly old ass when he produced it.
Padre: a lot of people sure have seem to have lost the key thing: Playing. If I did not have a group, I would lose much interest in blogging and what not.
ReplyDeleteDave: I was looking but didn't see that post.
Scott: I'm fairly new to it all, but I am struck by the negativity. It's influenced a bit of negativity from me, and I kind of game happy go lucky.
Crow:not so much anymore, but back in the 80's and 90's I would have some office job or another (paralegal, law library clerk, database manager, etc) and on quiet days (especially fridays) would slip into a file room with a notebook and work on the next game just as you describe.
Hedge: good advice!
Nagora: thanks for the extra insight. And for sure the Jackson analogy gives more food for thought. As for the magic, I dabbled a bit in the Satanic stuff (fallen Catholic after all) in the early 90's. I only truly threw an angry curse at two people around then. One dropped dead but months after. Never thought about it much, but the other guy, one who I hadn't seen in years, I just found out blew his own brains out (see my Toxic John post) a year or two after I had done those Satanicish rituals. Anyway, I'm glad I got bored/embarrased about that kind of activity before too long, and got more in line with hippy dippy good karma and vibes stuff. I really don't need that bad karma of the past now that I'm uneasing into middle age.
Dragonsfoot takes itself too seriously. I very rarely slither by there (username: bulette) and try to avoid some of the Major Snarks, although at other times it is too easy to bait them and see them back off. None of the big weenies there have the yarbles to play the game very well, but they never learn, which adds to the entertainment value of the sight if you don't get too irritated at them.
ReplyDelete