Wednesday night this week I was supposed to run a bit of my Mutant Future campaign, as one of the regulars could not make it for D&D. With regular player Ben doing a session of his D&D this coming weekend, I offered that we should at least do up our stats for his 1st ed. Game so we could have more game time on Saturday. By around 9:00 we were still working on characters, so I offered up that we should just go ahead and finish the characters so we could get right on it this weekend. I was a bit miffed that we put so much time into it that we didn’t actually do any gaming. I mean, I’m giving up a weeknight to run a game, not work on a character. But I originally suggested Ben do some D&D for some of the reasons I gave in this recent post, so I figured I would be supportive of that, and the MF games are just a sort of throwaway when we don’t have the full group. If I was doing my D&D there would have been no other stuff but the game, but I wasn’t so it was OK.
Ben is doing scenarios that are elf-centric. Our only choices for race were elves, half-elves, and human monks. No humans otherwise. I thought this was a bad start, because supposing you don’t like elves, and don’t get the stats for a monk? I know many DM’s like to do things like this, but I never liked doing elf, dwarf, etc. centric games. I like players to be whatever race they want or class they want, so I rarely restrict.
Ben is going by the book 1st ed, a far cry from my methods. When people have asked me if I go fully by the book, I say “as if.” So he let us use any of the methods from the DMG – 4D6 pick best 3 and put where you like: roll each stat on 3D6 in order six times, etc. FYI – my method is 4D6 method, with an elimination roll and possible bit of point switching.
Not everyone had arrived, so I went for it first and did the method that lets you do up 12 characers with the 3D6 method. I got pretty lucky, and ended up with Str. 13, DX 16, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 13, and Chr 13, That was pretty perfect for the half-elf Fighter/MU I was envisioning.
The other guys weren’t all that lucky. Poor Paul, a guy still fairly new to tabletop, decided he would go for the human monk. Nice try, but no stogie. He didn’t near have the stats for monk. I have to admit I could not resist getting in there and saying “aw, give him a break. But no go. Paul would have to settle on a very low wisdom, not that strong nor fast straight fighter full elf.
Andy did good enough to get a Cavalier with the 4D6 method. Daniel arrived a bit late, and he decided on the roll 12 characters method as I did. It took him forever, and it was very painful. Almost all of his stat rolls included a very low number for each possible character. He would have liked a ranger, but it wasn’t happening. Poor Dan, he decided on some kind of cleric/thief or something that he didn’t sound all that happy to pursue, but did anyway.
Long ago in my games I decided that we would do our best to let somebody have a character they wanted. There had to be some decent rolls in order to get a ranger or monk or whatever, and my 4D6 method including an elimination roll would often provide them. Maybe a point or two would have to be moved around. Whatever, as long as I was convinced the player wanted the character for a desire to role-play it, rather than just to be a powerful character, I would do my best. Ben’s strictness reminded me of some bad old game times from the early days, from a character standpoint.
One thing that really chapped my ass was this: In my game Ben is running an MU. When the system shock or die element of using a Haste spell was brought up in my game a couple of weeks ago, Ben vehemently argued against it. I asked him last night about it in his game, and he smilingly said he would be going by the book. As a DM I felt a little manipulated by that in my game, so good old Ben can expect me to lose a little bit of my easy going nature when it comes to his MU and his spells.
Am I too much of a soft touch in my game? Too easy on characters and the character creation process? I don’t tend to have power gamers in my group (for the most part), so it is easy to be more open. If somebody wants a ranger, we will do our best for them to have the stats for it, even if it means moving some points around.
We’ll see how Ben’s game goes Saturday night, but I get a feeling I’m going to be experiencing a lot of things that gave me reason back in the day to start putting in some of my own little rulings.
Still Out There, a Short Update
8 years ago
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If he doesn't like a little give and take in his game; you may be right to have less give in yours. I had a player manipulate me *once* in a past campaign. After that, I was wary of all his suggestions. The players I could trust, were trusted. The rules lawyers... well... they didn't get invited to my next campaign.
ReplyDeleteReal Life TM is daily lesson in you can't do X because you're not fast enough, smart enough, pretty enough, funny enough. I see no problem in letting play the kind of character they want. I the game is about imagination, then let people express their creativity.
ReplyDeleteGood luck this weekend! I look forward to reading the session report. :)
Sounds like it's the "by the book" that has you chapped. This could be fixed by saying there are no ability score requirements for classes. After all, they do sort of balance out with varying XP costs and detriments like the Monk and Paladin magic item limits, the Druid / Monk / Assassin fight-for-position, and various equipment restrictions.
ReplyDeleteAnd, not to be snarky, but he isn't going by the book. By the book, you get to pick your character's race.
Just so I'm constructive here, how about this:
ReplyDeleteAt chargen you get a chit that can be spent then or later. You can use up your chit to:
* Be able to take a class you don't qualify for
* Save yourself from death once
* Take back a terrible roleplaying decision, but it has to be used right then so the retconning is very limited
And that's it. Meaning players who miraculously qualified for the class they wanted, or those who take a common class like the Big Four, get exactly one free personal Get Out of Jail Free card.
I suppose "by-the-book-ben" hasn't read the part of these rules being guidelines or suggestions?
ReplyDeleteAh, well. Try not to let it affect the way you DM. Fighting fire with fire sometimes just burns the house down faster for everyone.
Be yourself. Be lenient where you want to be. Be generous as well. Of course, I grew up on all the ol' pulpy sci-fi stuff like Twilight Zone, etc where the devil or genie would give you EXACTLY what you wanted, but it usually came back to smack you. My own players knew to be cautious whenever I would get too generous, especially with a new player. Oh, how they would try to warn the newb...or sometimes not...and hilarity would often follow...
Ciao!
Grendelwulf
RE: Dice-rolls..mmmm...here's what I just posted over at the Tao of D&D:
ReplyDelete"These days, as a very "by-the-book-B/X" DM, I find it less a serious issue. The minor adjustments allowed for prime requisites generally ensure quality PCs, despite 3D6 rolls. But stats are much more important in AD&D (and later editions).
"When I was running long term (multiple year) AD&D campaigns, we generally started with "what class-race do you want to play?" and then made sure the character met the ability requirements, using one or more of the several dice rolling techniques presented in the books...the important thing for fun was that everyone had a character they wanted to play.
"During my short stint with D20, I generally had everyone split 78 points over their six attributes...no dice rolling at all..."
In answer to your question, I don't think you're too much of a light touch (RE: characters) if you intend to have a long-term game. I think it's important that players be allowed to play what they want. Of course, NEW players sometimes don't know what they want anyway and just get enamored of high stats...these folks should start with whatever the 'whims of fate' hand 'em before making a stink about wanting a barbarian or something.
RE: Manipulation by players/DMs
It's a hard fact of life that some people like to push one way or another to get their exact vision of how they want their game to go. I'm sure you push somewhat when it's important enough to you. The system shock thang wasn't as important to you as DM. The elvish characters and "by the book" rulings ARE important to Ben as DM. In the end, it's really up to how much the social contract can take and are your needs (both as DM and player) being met? If you're enjoying the game, you'll get used to the little idiosyncrasies of the particular game after awhile. In general, anyway.
: )
I feel ya on the DM differences thing. There's a time to step back and just take each campaign as a new world, a new experience.
ReplyDeleteThere's still things that would make me walk, but group cohesion is also valuable and some games are second to the friendships.
Saying that he's going 'by the book' cuts many ways.
Letting players choose from a full range of pre-rolled character choices (within this particular DM’s narrow guidelines) would be good option. This would speed things up, avoid "hopeless" character issues, and allows players a decent chance to play a character class they desire. A "by the book" DM may be too inflexible to allow this though.
ReplyDeleteJim: So far in my games Ben has been pretty quiet about my often severe house ruling despite his like for BtB, so I for sure give him more than a benefit of a doubt. One thing I really like about him running an MU in my game is he goes right into the book and looks everything up for the spell. For many other players I often seem to have to do half the work in looking the damn spells up.
ReplyDeleteChris: yeah, even if I did an OD&D game with the little white books, I'd still go for 4D6 best 3.
1D30: again, ol' Ben seems to have an elf fixation. I guess it is ok to tighten the PC focus a bit now and again. It would help if he opened it up to most types, but in his game we are doing only high elves and half high elves. No Valley elves, Grugach, etc.
The "get out of jail free" thing is similar to something I did in the old days for my superhero games.
JB: yep, I'm going to try and be supportive of what Ben is shooting for. Of course, I gotta grip on the blog a bit. Don't want to ruin my rep!
Red: like I said, gonna be supportive whatever happens. Shit maybe everyone will like his better than my D&D. Then I could focus on getting a regular Champions or Call of Cthulhu thing going!