Thieving from the party that is. Well, not directly from anybody (yet), but, well, here’s the tale.
One of my fairly new players is running a magic-user/thief named Lily. A few games ago when the character was started, the party was on the way into the Night Below setting. Lily and another new player character were tied up and about to be added to stew for a hearty Gnoll feast. The party slew the gnolls and took on these new party members.
Lily is a child of the streets with a tragic family background. She is a thief and a prostitute who learned some magic from a “boyfriend” to help her get by. Lily is not a great fighter, and the most she usually helps out is by throwing the occasional dagger at an enemy during combat. There is a single classed MU in the group a little higher level than Lily, so Lily is sort of outshone in both combat and magic-use.
But she really loves move silent, hide, and pick pockets. She will use her abilities each time she is near a treasure stash, and she is more often than not the first to the treasure area (while others still slug it out with the monsters) and she usually nabs a small item or two for herself. Mostly gems and jewels, but once a decent magic item too.
Last night Lily was on fire, getting to the biggest treasure pile in the campaign so far while the others were in combat (but a couple of wary characters trying to catch glimpses of her movements while they fought). With some lucky rolls on hide and pick pockets (I was using that to see how slick she was with grabbing a couple of small gem boxes), she got some more good stuff.
Already suspicious of her (and sort of catching her red handed in a previous game), the female drow of the group used detect lie and threats of strong arm tactics. Lily handed over the gems she just took, but that did not satisfy a couple of the characters. The two other female characters took her aside for a strip search, finding a couple of other suspicious items. Lily managed to “kiester” her small magic item and they didn’t find it.
Lily does not tell them what they want to hear – that she is sorry and is just used to stealing to get by. She is unabashed and comes off with a fairly nihilistic attitude. “It is what it is.”
She is still in the party, but I’m not sure this would be the common outcome in other games. So, what would your party do about Lily once she had her say?
"Cut from stem to stern" comes to mind.
ReplyDelete"...the female drow..."
ReplyDeleteUm...if the party is a Chaotic one, it sounds like a good time is being had by all. Isn't is survival of the fittest with those types? I'm sure you didn't have any good-aligned paladin/ranger types participating in the strip search and humiliation of a fellow party member, right? I mean if you have an evil adventuring party than thieves can expect to tread lightly or get roughed up.
I can't answer your question about "what would your party do?" directly, as it's usually not parties but PLAYERS that make decisions about the actions of their characters. Lilly's player seems to be making valid choices for her character's action: she's out-classed at everything but thieving, so thieving is what she'll do...and it sounds like she's good at it. I can only assume that your players are handling their chaotic and/or evil character's actions appropriately as well.
When I was a DM of a regular campaign, I allowed players to largely self-regulate within the limits of the rules. If they acted outside the tenets of their faith or alignment they'd get the standard nailing with penalties as prescribed in the DMG. But if characters had disagreements with each other...well, there was more than one character that died due to in-game vendettas between characters. That's just old school D&D.
; )
It really depends on a lot of factors. The same group of players might very well react differently, under various character groupings. I've DM'ed parties where it would be laughed about out of game and dealt with in a more or less benevolent fashion, in game. The exact same players, might outright kill the thief, if playing a different set of characters. I would suspect that this would work out differently, with less experienced role-players. Not sure, though.
ReplyDeleteWait till she's higher level and then kill her. She'll be worth more xp.
ReplyDeleteDepends on the over party situation (and the types of characters involved). But a "you know, that could have ended very badly for your character" warning would almost certainly have been made. I would hope it would move into a general discussion of roleplaying tropes, social contracts in gaming and trying to understand their desire to play a character that was likely to be killed/exiled by the other PCs.
ReplyDeleteIn my games, the players are a strong team-player effort. Don't steal, don't cheat, don't be a jerk to other players is pretty much the social contract of the group. If one of the players decided to play Lily, it would make for some hard feelings. It's just the way the group is wired.
ReplyDeleteI love how she shoved magic items up her ass when strip-searched by her party members. That is awesome and serves as another example of how I'm Doing It Wrong. I also like how she was completely lacking in remorse.
ReplyDeleteWhen I played through that module for about a year I was a human fighter. By the time we hit 9th level I was doomed. The Ranger was killing everything with Finslayer, the Wizard was blowing everything up with fireballs and the Cleric was pretty awesome.
To amuse myself, I also resorted to petty theft and general insanity.
It all depends on the style of game you like and the personalities of the people around the table.
ReplyDeleteI would Team-Kill the Thief and the Drow. The other two female characters would be put on notice.
>:-)
Sort of a non-issue. She's a successful thief.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the problem is with the rest of the party. What is up with the inclusion of drow?
Restless: people do seem to lean either towards "chop em up" and "laugh it off"
ReplyDeleteJB/SeaofStars: yeah, I'm going to let them regulate. But next game I will remind them (mainly the drow players) that Lily's player is new to gaming in general, and isn't doing things to cause shit. Just role-playing this damaged character. By the way, the party is generally chaotic/nuetral/good. The drow is lawful/nuetral (i know, i know...)
Yong: Naw, nobody has hard feelings, and the Lily player is a fairly quiet guy and new to rpg's. All fairly laid back, excpet maybe the drow females player is a tad high strung and power-gamey.
Chris: Man, we gotta meet face to face some time this year so I can get details on that Night Below campaign. Sounds like a hoot and a half.
Stuart: Well, it was kind of a kick-back, count the treasure role-playing session, so the disagreements with Lily didn't take up any monster killing or exploring time. It made for great role-play and it was a night I got to kick back a bit.
This sort of thief action is exactly how the thief is portrayed and how the mechanics for them are written.
ReplyDeleteI get really annoyed at players who get bent out of shape and refuse to let thieves be thieves.
If you don't like it, ban the class. Don't lie and say it's ok to play a thief and them gimp them.
Norman: I'm actually ok with a thief. i'm not making a complaint as a DM - just telling a story. I was on lily's side and made the other player tread carefully, but in the end she had been too obvious before and it got her nerfed by the players, not me. Should I have fought the offended players on this?
ReplyDelete@ Bruno: Man, I don't think fighting the players (or siding with a player against the others) is EVER the way to go. There are ways to "help" Lily without resorting to...um..."refereeing."
ReplyDeleteI echo Norm and BP: she seems to be playing her class and playing her class well. What might be pointed out to the other party members is not the "team importance" mentality so much as the benefits of having a thief...and a competent thief!...in the group. If she can save the party's bacon at some point using her thief skills, they'll probably let these little indiscretions slide.
I've always presumed this sort of thing goes on but it must make for an uncomfortable gaming group. No matter what alignment everybody's PC is, amongst the players the general consensus is all for one, one for all, isn't it? I mean how could someone expect their fellows to bind their wounds, pull them out of jaws of slavering monsters and just generally save their arse if they proceed to nab all the best loot as soon as it's available?
ReplyDeleteI play my selfish CN MU as true to character as possible, but I stop short of pissing of my comrades. Partly because it's an act of self preservation and partly because in real life we're all buddies and we want to beat the bad guys and get the goodies.
Also, how does it actually happen? does the thief write furtive notes to the DM every time she filches from her party colleagues? Their eyes must roll every time that happens. Surely the player of Lily must be put off by the bad vibes. And even though the other members aren't thieves too, whatever happened to 'honour amongst thieves'?
Dungeonmum:The Lily player is open about it all. New to the game, it was all kind of innocent, ironically. And although that player got unwanted attention, it was pretty good natured. That drow player wasn't mad, just playing that character as hard ass, as usual.
ReplyDeleteEven pirates had an answer to this conundrum. Anyone shirking a fight or withholding loot from the common spoils was variously hung, shot or marooned as an example to others.
ReplyDeleteIf it's good enough for Captain Morgan...
Im just curious HOW the drow "grew suspicious" to me that sounds like a bit of OOC knowledge to hose the character.
ReplyDeleteIf Lily MADE the pick pocket rolls and whatnot, there shouldn't be room for suspicion, she did it without getting caught. If she failed, then everyone should know. I'd also be curious how the party proved she took anything as at this point it seems a lot like a cut throat party and not one that should be too concerned.
The evil drow (who probably should have asked for a cut instead) flat out attacked another party member with detect lie.
Such a spell is high intrusive and an offensive violation to someones privacy (IC). Its akin to a random strip search (worse actually), and there is a reason thats not allowed in todays civilized society.
But thats just me, it seems like the party has no problem turning on each other given the presence of the drow and the evil of the drow.
Zarchov: I can see how you might come to some of those conclusions. Honestly, one only has so much room to describe a game and the party and all their doings. I'll try to clarify a couple things.
ReplyDeleteThe drow can be a bit of a bully, but is not evil. She was raised by druids. But she is a good bit reactionary to slights to herself and others in the party.
The party is by no means cutthroat, but are not goody goody either. Chaotic good and C/N with good tendencies is the norm. There is no real turning on each other I think, as they all have common goals that are more or less about the common good. They are down in that hellpit Night Below because society is endangered. But they also are a treasure seeking lot, and there is a little selfishness evident in the group. Most would risk life and limb to save each other if the chips were down I am sure.
Lily was previously caught red handed sliding up to treasure and nabbing something. She just failed rolls, was asked, and flat out said "Yeah, here's the thing I took." So when a fight was still going on in the treasure room in my tale, most players were wary of Lily's movements, and there was no reason to feel the characters would not have that in mind. Nobody saw her pilfer, but they know she had sidled up to the treasure rather than come help or at least be on hand. I don't see a ton or foreknowledge.
If I knew a neighbor stole my paper before, and I saw him the next week hanging around my driveway watching for the paperboy, should I not suspect him?
A bit late to the party...
ReplyDeleteI basically see a well played thief doing this all the time. A well played thief would also know to grab things that would not be noticed.
As far as me being in party with a thieving thief. My first questions are: is the thief unlocking doors, chests, and removing traps? In other words are they doing their job? If so, then an occasional pilfer here and there is par for the course. If they are not doing their job, then that is another story. Now if they are not doing their job and/or pilfering something that would be very useful to the party, then after the adventure they go their own way. If it is a gem or two here and there...and they are picking those locks, removing traps, and being the first one to open that chest? They earned that gem!
As a DM, I ask players what kind of thief they want to be: a thieving thief or an “honest” thief. If they are a thieving thief I make notes of when they can grab something out of the pile without the party knowing. After the game, I let them know what they can have a shot at, if they want to… I do this away from the other players. The next treasure haul I add back in what the thief left. If there are times when the thieving thief wants to make a riskier shot he has to tell me, but they way they tell me is with a wink and a nudge and a raised eyebrow, a kick under the table. Something subtle that if another player catches I figure he got caught. I then make the party do some bogus percentile roll acting like something is getting shot at them, and note what roll the thieving thief made. Success/failure?
So far this has worked very well. But we are an old group-only two people regularly play a thief, the other four have no knowledge that this goes on. The thieving thieves also make a point to not go for magic items: they go for small high value items like gems and jewelry. They avoid the “plain gold bands.”
It will be interesting when one of them gets caught...it has been 10 years real time now and they have been pretty good at it.