OK, in a nutshell, the characters in my games generally need to have magic items identified – for the most part. There is often some clue with certain items. Protection necklaces and rings often are in the shape of a shield. And it is safe to assume that a potion with little feather bits floating around will be feather fall or levitation or something similar.
If a player uses the item a bit, like fighting with a magic weapon, they will usually find out on their own what it does (I assume a seasoned fighter can tell the difference between a normal sword and a plus 2 one after a few rounds of combat).
But I never really bother with making the characters take gems and jewelry to town to get appraised. I just tell them the worth (which, if I feel like it, I can have vary depending on what part of the lands you are in – certain gems may be worth a lot less to dwarves than they are to humans) and that is that. It’s just easier, and doesn’t seem to detract from the game. The players sure don’t seem to mind.
I guess I may be robbing them of certain role-playing opportunities, but really, there are better things to do in the big city than spending an afternoon haggling in a jewelry shop.
So how do you handle this?
I usually give exact values for gems and jewelry, but remain cryptic about magic items. I want to talk about magic items; a gem is just some points.
ReplyDeleteI don't usually roll for random magic items, instead, giving them only magic items I want the group to have at that stage in their development.
ReplyDelete--I let Read Magic (B/X style) do a lot of the initial analysing and more potent spells, if had by the group (or in my current group, a circlet of Read Languages) fill in the rest.
As far as mundane loot, I let the most qualified PCs guestimate, and then, if they don't haggle, give them what I want them to have for it.
--I also don't always give XP for simple finds, but often do for big scores, or those that were hard-earned.
In the past (3.5 when we had enough crap to deal with already), I just gave them the value and paid it out.
ReplyDeleteBut in our Yggsburgh sandbox, what we're doing is giving them a choice: take 40% or roleplay out finding a buyer.
I'm expecting they'll eventually develop a relationship with a jeweler or something - but that is up to them.
I make them work for it. It gives them a good reason to go into town and have adventures while they are there. They also don't get the xp for the items until they know what they're worth. I especially enjoy the decision making in the dungeon when they're trying to figure out if some non-monetary item is worth hauling back up to the surface or not.
ReplyDeleteAlso, they ran into an interesting problem recently when the books they've been hauling out of the dungeon (which is supposed to remain a secret) have apparently attracted the attention of a mysterious "collector" who will pay them a premium on certain titles. It obviously gave them some worry, and all-in-all I think it helps reinforce the idea that even the most trivial of actions (selling your shit in town) could have unforeseen consequences.
ReplyDeleteFor magical items:
ReplyDeleteIn 3.5, purchase your 100gp gems and such, until they found the nifty item that let them skip that (at level 9).
In Yggsburgh (using C&C), we're letting them get clues through the item's appearance and magical aura. They may be able to decipher the command word in the runes or they may have to get it identified. They do have a bard so we'll see how that works out too.
I try to give each magical item a history (have a random chart), which helps giving descriptions and functional clues.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=36735
For mundane treasure I always assumed "treasure value" = "what the PCs get for selling it."
ReplyDeleteIf you only want a PC to get 1000 gps for a 2500 gp necklace, then the damn thing is worth 1000, not 2500! Unless you are giving a PC more XP for the treasure VALUE than gold gained through "haggling."
Personally, I've never been much for role-playing haggling (and the players seemed not to miss anything, seeing as how there were other role-playing opportunities in the game). Then I started a game with my wife WHO LOVES to haggle (in real life) and who immediately started trying to work deals just while buying her 1st level character's equipment! So FOR HER, I may have to change my standard practice when it comes to treasure and haggling.
: )
For a long time I had a single dwarven merchant buy all the players found jewelry and gems and he usually offered 10-25% less than what I had written down on the plans. It seems a little silly in retrospect but I always figured someone would haggle a little bit - though as far as I can remember no one ever has.
ReplyDeleteI like that table, Red. I may just have to try that out on the next low to mid level item (for +3' and better item types I usually come up with a history that fits into the world, but those are few and far between).
ReplyDeleteAnother reason I justify just telling the players gem values is that in my world I assume that gems and jewerly are often used as tender, and that anybody with some merchant or adventuring experience can be assumed to have some appraisal skill - at least enough to suss out the worth of a typical stone (rubies have ended up being the most common type in my world, probably because over the decades that is what I came up with off the top of my head when I haven't written notes for the treasure found).
Eli: I usually do a % commish demanded by a buyer when gems and jewels are sold in larger quantities. I usually let a player try to haggle that down a bit (in year one of college back in the 80's I lost a female player who tried to vamp an old man to haggle down a price. She got upset and quit the game when she failed).
ReplyDeleteI always have money changers charge 10% when characters come tripping in wanting to trade 1000 GP worth of coppers and silvers for gold coinage.
For years, I did the appraisal and test deal, but I got tired of tracking everything I gave out, making notes of what the PCs had figured and hadn't. Like you said, we had better things to deal with. Since about the mid-2e days, I've generally told them once they have time to look over a haul of gems and jewels. Same for basic magic items. They mess with them for a bit (and I always hated playing out an hour of "I jump up and down. I try to fly. I point it at the thief...") and they figure out what it can do. That for the general stuff, there are still plenty of surprises. Those old history texts they decided to haul out may turn out to be worth a lot to a collector if they bother to search and special magic items remain special and often require some effort to learn about, be it learned experts (sages or artificiers), lore, divinations, etc.
ReplyDeleteI take a bit different tack on magic items than most. The only type of "common" items in the game are things like scrolls and potions. Wands, rods, staffs, rings and miscellanious are much more rare. Weapons and armor are usually non-magical. What I mean to say is that most anything that's +2 or lower is just very well made or constructed of some type of rare material. +3 or above on the other hand is super rare, and is a true magic item that has a history as well as some other powers.
ReplyDeleteSo for identifying weapons and armor, I go w/ the old standby of "use it and find out". Everything else is done by a read magic and a wee bit of testing. The 100 gp identify is usually reserved for those singular, unique items that are tough to figure out.
Gems are a funny thing...In most of my games, if there's a dwarf, he can usually come w/in 20% of the actual value. But most of the time I just hand wave it. I use gems as a form of currency at times, and if a merchant can reliably valuate a gem, then I figure so too can an adventurer. Maybe not quite as reliably or accurately, but still, a LOT of gems tend to pass through their greedy little fingers.
Sometimes I do odd things with coins as well...Like if they've plundered and especially old tomb, they pull out a bunch of silver coins of unusual mintage and find out that they're worth the same and an electrum piece. And when they do retrieve coins like that I make them do a bit of research...I even once used coins as a map to a sunken kingdom.
My campaigns usually have small & weak, or non-existent, governments. So coins are not trusted by vendors any more than gems or other items that they can appraise themselves (it being easier to shave coins for individuals and debase coins for rulers) - thus converting treasure to coin doesn't happen. So I tell them what jems/jewelry is worth, but they can expect to be forced to haggle by vendors.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, in games with a skill system, I assume the players will take an Appraisal skill or a craft skill related to the item. Either will work to determine worth. If nobody wants to spend skill points on these non-combat skills, they don't get free immediate appraisal.
ReplyDeleteIn games without a skill system (Like OD&D) I assume the character using the item most would know enough about it to appraise it. A Fighting-Man knows about armor and weapons, and riding / war animals. A Magic-User knows about gems and books, and exotic animals. A Cleric knows about incense, religious artifacts, and religious books. Thieves (yeah) know about spices, cloth, herd animals, that sort of trade good.
If the players don't have someone who can appraise the item, I tell them to write down a ? mark for the value. When they get to town the merchant will roll reaction and determine how much he screws them over in buying it. Merchants they use a lot will screw them less. It's usually 0% to 20% markdown.
I like magic items with personality. Every magic sword is an ego sword or otherwise very strange, and other weapons have quirky behavior and reactions to various situations. A magic axe might burst into flames when oil is poured over it, acting as a flaming axe for 2d6 rounds. It's just like a standard flaming weapon, but you need to carry some oil and use it before the fight. I like that sort of thing. A rod might have runes on it, and if you cover a rune with your thumb it activates a power. So experimentation can work. But "I close my eyes and will the item to do something" or "I jump around flapping my arms" hardly ever does anything.
If they don't want to experiment, or can't figure things out, or want to make sure they know about all the powers it has, they can use Identify from a Magic-User. The caster has to wear/wield/sip the item in question and is affected by any curses it may carry. Because of this no high-level caster can be found to Identify items. Just too dangerous! And low-level casters have a chance of failure. I consider the failure chance to be the same as a Thief picking locks: you can't try again with that Thief on that lock until he goes up a level.
The Identify spell requires a 100 GP pearl, has a 10% chance per level to work, and you get one item per level in a casting. It takes eight hours to cast but there is no disability afterward.
The identifier is usually a type of notary public, a trusted individual in the community, who will generally not screw you over. He charges some amount per item, but if he can't find anything out he doesn't charge you. But if he gets cursed he charges a fee for getting it removed (or living with it, if it can't be removed) and keeps your identified items until you can pay up. It's usually a total cost of 100 GP per item, plus 500 GP if he gets cursed.
Hmmm...I think on this subject we are minds divided; those of us who enjoy the process of letting players discover the value of treasure, and those of us who are just too darn lazy...
ReplyDelete