Saturday, October 29, 2011

Do I even want to be considered “Old School” anymore?






That is what I have been thinking this week after seeing reactions to the Dwimmermount project over at Grognardia the last few months (and a wide variety of other old school blogs and web pages), and especially this week.

I did not seek out much in the way of online info about gaming until recent years. In the 90’s during a heavy gaming period, I checked-out some forums briefly on AOL, but by around 1999 or so I had gone into a retirement period from gaming that would last several years. I was getting so involved in the world music community in California, and was spending much more time with people to whom gaming was not even on the radar of, I pretty much quit (I always had a busy life outside games, but at that point I knew nobody who gamed or wanted to. And when I would be dating a girl around then I certainly never brought up gaming to them). It was getting hard to get people together on a weekend (then the preferred time to play) for several hours on a Saturday or Sunday, and it did not seem worth it anymore. I for sure was not going to start gaming as an adult at game shops and cons. I was done. I thought for good.

Then three years ago I got contacted by current group host Andy off of Meetup.com where I had sort of off-handedly started a profile, and *bam!* we had a group together and have been gaming regularly since. On a weeknight actually, because regular weekend gaming again was still a pipe dream and would probably always be so with rare exceptions. So this OSR thing was at full steam as I discovered. I saw an advert for some D&D podcast that appealed to me so I listened and James from Grognardia was the guest (they described him as a blogger who did not always have the most fascinating posts, but by sheer virtue of the amount of posts he had a big following). After that I checked out James blog, and was ultimately inspired to start my own, as I had my own old school stories to tell.

After three years of checking out the OSR, I’m getting pretty tired of old school-style artwork when it had previously been nice and nostalgic (, I will always revere Trampier and others from the past for pure nostalgia value) currently being produced. Same-old same-old adventurers cautiously approaching a dungeon doorway. So little of it inspires me now. Case in point, James and his proudly displayed art samples for Dwimmermount.

The artist is excellent, but I’m sorry, the standard knight dude and the old broad who runs the leather mug booth at the Ren Faire somehow schlepping into a mountain top dungeon in the wilderness not only is uninspiring to me, but seems to me not to be very far from the realm of a parody drawing of old school D&D. I’m fine with people liking it, but Jesus Christ, words like “Outstanding” and “amazing” on the comment thread is giving me a serious douche-chill. Most of James readers are at the point where they are pre-sold on anything he does, it seems.

Now, James as usual is a little touchy when it comes to his work and fan club. Differing opinions on his work is often met with a “you can go read other blogs” type of stuff. Fair enough. But although I have rarely kissed his ass (I think James feels mostly burned by me in the past for my hearty defending of the 80's Conan film that he bashes constantly and obssesively), I feel I have chimed in with plenty of thumbs-up on ideas and reviews over the years, and try to offer my own experiences of the old school that is perhaps a bit more visceral and from the viewpoint of an outgoing personality (i.e. I was on the football team in high school as opposed to the chess club).

So far on that thread the only other dissenting opinion is of young gamer grrrl Rachel of Rach’s Reflections (the only girl on the thread agrees with me. A win is a win), who is for sure a smart cookie. She had some very contemplative comments on how changes to the old, silly styles can be cool and keep what was good while having a bit more umph!:



“... It may just be my late entry into the hobby, but the whole "ren-faire" look that seems to be in vogue to the old-school community just looks... silly to me, particularly in conjunction with the idea that old-school play is a little grittier and more mercenary. A certain amount of stylization to make adventurers look cool is a good thing. I'm not saying full dungeonpunk, but...

“…Well... look at Johnny Weismuller in a pair of brown trunks, Errol Flynn in a green unitard and felt jerkin, or Burt Ward in elf booties and green underwear.
Now look at Tarzan as drawn by Disney, Jonas Armstrong with a cowl and leather armor, or Robin as drawn throughout the 90s and oughts.
Which one looks more like a reject from a panto, and which one looks like someone that knows how to throw down? Keep in mind I'm not asking what's more accurate to the text (Tarzan) or the period (Robin Hood), I'm just saying that they look more like they might be taken seriously, without being excessive at that…”

I like this lass. Smart is so sexy. Anyway, there is bad updating (dungeonpunk with bald heads, tattoos, and giant hoop earrings; black leather in X-Men film costumes, Spider-Man in a costume that would cost 100 times his freelance salary, etc), then there is good updating like the stuff Rachel mentioned. Truly, Disney Tarzan (I think the best Tarzan so far, and the closest to the books outside of DC comics 1970’s series) and 90's Robin looked like they could realistically kick ass, but were still Tarzan and still Robin.

But going too far into the past to search out fuzzy feelings really only goes so far to me (anymore). I think you can tap into that past without same-old same-old. Not that I'm the guy to do it (real job, interests besides gaming, mid-life crisis, etc etc etc), but I will tell you this; I was not immediately taken with James R’s LOTFP, or Goeff’s Carcosa, but the more I see of what old school Grog’s who are trying to maintain the old school look and feel are doing, the more I am attracted to those truly unique works that actually think outside the box while still being basically, at heart, old school fantasy gaming. Shit, they certainly are not boring.

Bottom line, and please excuse my French, but how the fuck many more basic, old school dungeons and drawings of knights at the dungeon doorway do we still need to see at this point? Is there a bottomless need and desire for this stuff out there?

When it comes to me and “old school,” I think I am at a crossroads, folks. While I think I will still run me some ol’ school D&D here and there, I think I’m done looking at new scenarios, settings, art, and writing for it unless it has something new to say and something that inspires me more than just looking like art from back in the day (or looking like a parody of it).

What say you?

16 comments:

  1. A lot of people are talking art today! http://aldeboran.blogspot.com/2011/10/some-artists-who-ought-to-illustrate.html

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  2. Wow. I swear to God I did not see that before now! Interesting.

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  3. There's not much in the way of Dungeon-punk that I can stomach. I did enjoy Jeff Dee's art back in the day (and still do now) and he was one of the earliest dungeon-punk artists.

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  4. I think you make a good point. I didn't think the artwork was particularly unique either. It definitely is something we've seen a lot of, and therefore is not really bringing anything new to the table. Perhaps there's a certain amount of inertia taking its toll on some of the old school products that are being released/developed. I'm more interested in the contents, because I like to see other people's house rules.

    Have you seen some of the cover art for the Dungeon Crawl Classics modules that are due to come out early next year? I think some of that stuff is pretty old school in flavor, but much of it is not just the same old "guy in authentic looking armor about to enter a dungeon" stuff.

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  5. By the way, when you wrote "I hate to float a Baby Ruth bar into the pool party" I thought it was a damn fine use of a pop culture reference! Thanks for the laugh, I needed that!

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  6. Oh, also wanted to mention: I thought the artwork that James just posted (the old lady and the fighter) was good artistically. I was well-drawn, but I was definitely puzzled by how many people seemed to be salivating over it. Was it a lot of lip service? Probably. I thought it was par for the course. I think there's some inertia the OSR is experiencing, and I think that the people putting out the OSR products think that their intended audience/customers are going to be looking for a certain style that harkens back to the original games. I think that whole thing needs to be reconsidered. The homage art was probably a good thing when the OSR was new, but now there should probably be some rethinking of presentation.

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  7. I liked the illo, but it didn't exactly make me sit up and say "WOW!".
    And while I like most original old school art, I don't see the point of trying to imitate it. Well, maybe to follow a formula.
    The best original old school artists have either vanished or are now at the top of their fields.
    Bill Willingham is very successful with comic books.
    John Blanche is practically a legend.
    Jeff Dee seems to be making a comeback.
    "Be a first rate you, not a second rate Frazetta" - Frank Frazetta

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  8. This topic actually reminds me of a pet peeve of mine...new clothes that are designed to look old. I'm talking about shirts with old, nostalgic prints (old movies, video games, etc) that are designed to look like they're peeled off, jeans with the knees already blown out, those "Gilligan" looking hats that are already frayed along the brim, etc.

    Likewise, I'm not digging much on new books that try to look old. It was neat for awhile, but even then I bought few of them because I already have my actual old books.

    I like older rules sets for my D&D, but I don't necessarily need them to all have 70's and 80's looking fantasy art. I don't need the modern treatment that's all fifteen foot swords, spikes, fifteen useless buckles on every garment, etc., but I think more modern styles of art (and trade dress) certainly aren't a bad idea.

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  9. Drance: for sure some drawing that tell a story with some zest, rather than droll-ass "doo dee doo...were lazily heading into the dungeon...doo dee doo"

    Pere: is that the guy who did some Fiend Folio stuff? I used to not like that style, but you know what? Even just a goblin/dwarf thing sitting on a rock by the guy has a lot of implicit action in it, and the level of detail and emotion conveyed tells you a large part of the story here without knowing anything. I actually kind of think the guy is outstanding. Kind of cartoony, but I can swing that way.

    Nemo: I for sure prefer to go look at the old stuff over the new wanna-be stuff. I'm sure there's a lot of old school stuff I didn't happen to ever see. I want to see more of that.

    Ryan: I think like a lot of people I have my own idea of what things look like anyway in my games regardless of D&D art. A good mini or a drawing is great, but it's what your mind wants to percieve the dames and dude a certain personal way that really counts at game time in their game world.

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  10. I've been thinking alot lately about "elitism" in gaming and I think your touching on it heavily here in this post. The reality is bloggers, podcasters, even game developers themselves (with the exception of the big name guys who are making decent livings as true professionals and have reason to talk about themselves a bit ... just a hand full of people out there like that really) are all in this small fish bowl of whatever gaming niche they partake in. Inevitably elitism starts to creep in and before people know it they are feeling superior to others, they have their sycophants and followers and then they start to feel like a big shot micro celebrity. Ryan Macklin comes to mind here. Some people do it well and keep things in perspective and clearly they are doing it simply out of a passion for their hobby. Others it seems to change, it goes to their head and it gets blown out of proportion. They start to release products about themselves, they start to advertise, and capitalize on it and then bit by bit it becomes about making that extra $500.00 a month and being king of their follower group or whatever ... its the downside to all this I guess. I tend to avoid those sites and personalities myself and I'm not really a fan of most podcasts ... anytime its about inside jokes and cult of personality I'm gone. Fundamentally the average store troll is not that different than the average guy with a podcast or a blog, I can hear people pontificating or I can do it myself. I want content I want to listen to what people who love these hobbies as much as I do are experiencing, what they like and dislike, how they play their games, how the paint minis and build terrain, design their encounters, etc. etc. etc. When things start to become more about the micro celebrity and less about the game ... then I have no reason to pay attention to that blog/podcast anymore its a waste of my time.

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  11. I'm definitely a new-look oldschooler, mainly because my experience with the old rules back in the day was not always positive. I don't want to crystallize the past in the future, and ex-post-facto rationalizations of bad practices "because Gary did it" hold absolutely no weight with me. I want to avoid the cliches of 1981 and 2001 alike.

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  12. I just posted my own thoughts on James' blog. I imagine some people might hate what I have to say (which amounts to, "Grow up, stop taking it personally, and stop building straw men to discredit people who disagree with you") but I felt it needed to be said.

    One of the problems I have with the OSR is the overt worship of all things OS. Sorry, I like the OS dungeon-crawl game from time-to-time, but I prefer games where I'm rewarded for role-playing, character advancement comes from in-game development and experience and not from loot, and the world is much more coherent and alive and dungeons believably designed.

    I don't have the nostalgic attachment to stuff like Trampier's art and I much prefer the so-called "Silver Age" artwork by guys like Elmore.

    My thoughts on the art issue.

    I lived in East Asia for three years and actually got to see tombs, ruins, and castles. I noticed a distinct lack of orcs, random wizards looking for a place to hide out, carrion crawlers, and dark elves. I also noticed a distinct lack of trapped chests containing loot all over the place with which I could level up twelve times over. I also noticed that they all had a distinct atmosphere, a sense of oldness and mystery, and didn't look anything like the dressed-stone masonry of the stereotypical dungeon. D&D can be a lot bigger than some giant megadungeon in some forgotten mountain--a megadungeon filled with monsters from every mythology and a kitchen sink. So can it's art.

    I think I'm going to write more about this on my own blog.

    In the meantime, this strip at The Oatmeal should give you a chuckle and remind you why some people are so worried about their elitism on the internet.

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  13. Lord of Exess: Damn right. Big fishes in small ponds. In James M's case, he authentically seems to just want to share his stuff, and he's a writer so making a buck is not that weird a thing. James Raggi has turned his house rules into a professional publishing business and I like that. Zak on the other hand is the "celebrity" you mention for sure, and though I don't read any of his stuff, to me he's mostly a huckster who got a great blog following mostly due to the fact that he hangs out with skeeves, ho's, and lower end porn chicks who mostly do rough trade, gang rape simulation videos. For some reason much of the gaming community is fascinated by that, while I find it kind of sadly ironic.

    Roger: I agree and feel much the same way.

    Shlominus: yeah, bottom line that is good advice.

    Dave: insightful as usual, and thanks for the good words over at the Grognardia thread. As usual Zak turned it into a total drama queen meltdown.

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  14. Much as I like to think of myself as "Old-School" I just like to play the old games. I agree with you: why is some much of the art derivative? The DCC art is b&w and is clearly old school inspired, but it doesn't "look" old school, if that makes sense.

    And to me there is a big difference between a parody/homage of Erol Otus and Otus himself (and who is till painting and gaming away). It's hard to articulate, but maybe thi smakes sense.

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